WALKING INTO MORDOR

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Comment by Jennifer Groves on April 16, 2012 at 3:07pm

currently i have no computer (on order) so cannot access my regular files, and worse yet, can barely type on the half-size tablet keyboard I'm currently using. sounds like you've had quite a journey. 

my primary interest in archaeology has been the prehistoric bronze/iron ages. Never had any particular interest in islam per se until a series of events woke me up to the realities of its theology. I have some ppts on the topic if you're interested--won't be able to access them for another week or so.

Comment by Gordie WH on April 15, 2012 at 7:50pm

Jennifer,

Fantastic!  You'll be my goto person for all things Near East.   I read your post w/ the specific passages.   That helped a lot.

I've long been curious about the old codes, so now I know to whom I can direct my questions.   And a real live person to boot!   It's a 'when the student is ready, a teacher will appear' moment.   I would agree that the old codes featured "eye for an eye".   The earliest documented teacher of the Golden Rule of which I am aware was Confucius.

I'm quite interested in the influence  Zoroastrianism had on Islam, Iran, and Persian culture.   My current understanding is that it too had an "eye for an eye" code.   As I understand it,  they made a positive/negative distinction between good and evil....there was no middle ground.   Apparently the Hebrew tradition referred to them as the Sons of Darkness.   One of the Hebrew tribes was the Essenes who were referred to as the Sons of Light.    I've always found it curious that Essenian teachings seem to match  those of Jesus.   Are you aware of any evidence of their possible direct connection?  

I lost my Christianity after my Viet Nam experience.   (Colin Powell was an Army Captain back in those days.)  I had always tried to live by the 10 Commandments.   Nam shredded that belief system for me.   At one point I joined in Bible study using the WA Criswell study Bible.  My mentor was reading copies of  Greek versions in the original Greek.   That experience broke my allegiance to the King James version.   This all happened some 40-50 years ago.   I've since moved on.   (I'd share privately the rest of my journey, but I don't think this website is an appropriate place to do so.   Feel free to contact me via email.)

From what I understand of Islam, I'm pretty well convinced that its aim is to establish a global caliphate under sharia.   I've long argued, elsewhere, that replacing our English common law system with sharia is a threat and totally unacceptable.   I consider Islamic Republic an oxymoron, since there is no separation of church, state, and sharia.  It's a monolithic system and reminds me of the Holy Roman Empire.   I'm aware that the Dearborn Muslim community has tried to get judges to honor sharia in their court rooms.   So the threat is fairly close to home.   I suspect the threat will increase the further politicians deviate from the original intent and purpose of the Constitution.  (My blog post here, "Hamilton vs Jefferson" touches on that issue.) 

    

Comment by Jennifer Groves on April 15, 2012 at 11:28am

Hi Gordie--

My background is archaeology of the Near East; Im familiar with the ancient law codes but they tend to be "eye for eye" oriented. which code are you alluding to?

when I want to understand a particular religion, i read the writings on which it is founded (still making my way through the book of mormon!). I read the Qur'an yrs ago, without knowing that it teaches it is abrogated and the numerical order is not chronological. reading it chronologically really changes the formerly mixed messages--the final suras repeatedly mandate killing all unbelievers as the route to establishing sharia "altogether and everywhere". I posted a flyer w more info/specific passages in the "national and local" group if you're interested. 

Comment by Gordie WH on April 15, 2012 at 6:43am

Thanks for the tip on Bill Whittle. I’ll check him out.

You are quite right on liberation theology. As an aside, Reverend Wright, BHO’s pastor of some 20 years was educated in the liberation theology tradition in its Communist form. Wright was Muslim at the time. He later converted to Christianity.

The social gospel is based on the postmillennial interpretation of Chapter 20 of the Book of Revelation.  My statement re the social gospel was based on the Scriptural injunction to “Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation”.  (The precise wording varies according to which translation is used.)  Postmillennial influence in the US is addressed in Murray Rothbard’s 1994 essay entitled “America’s Two Just Wars: 1775 and 1861”. My main source for postmillennialism as it relates to US foreign policy was Justin Raimondo’s “The Anti-Interventionist Tradition in American Politics”.

The Golden Rule has a long history dating back, according to some scholars, to 1780 BCE.

For brief definitions of civilization and empire, see Wikipedia. I can’t find one empire that has lasted.

I would agree that some cults are religiously based. Jim Jones, postmillennials, j’hadists, even Manifest Destiny come to mind.   But I can’t dismiss whole religions based on the beliefs and activities of a cult.

I tend to agree with the notion that “those who ignore history are bound to repeat it”.   So I think it’s important that we know our national history and the influences which shaped it.

Comment by Jennifer Groves on April 14, 2012 at 11:45pm

I agree w/ you on some points. However, true followers of Christ don't mandate anything. Enforced 

Christianity came through Constantine and the Vatican-- assumed authority that Protestants don't accept. social gospel is recent terminology--and also vatican-linked. in the 1960's-70's, the rcc called social justice "liberation theology" in latin america. as ppl began to realize that was a front for communism, the label was dropped and resurrected 20 yrs later as "social justice". unfortunately, a lot of ppl have not caught on yet, despite all the communist catch phrases (e.g. common good, sacrifice for the community, etc) on the vatican website and in Pope Benedict's "GLobal Public Authority" and "Caritas in Veritate".

applying "social gospel" to the creation of the u.s. seems anachronistic and misapplied. where do you believe the principle of the golden rule originated? I'm not sure how you're defining "civilization" vs "empire".

I wholeheartedly agree w/ freedom of religion--unless that religion teaches that killing others is your duty and it is your job to undermine and destroy all governments in order to establish your own. But then, that's not just a religion--that's a government and a cult.

Whittle has some great videos on youtube.

Comment by Gordie WH on April 14, 2012 at 10:43am

BTW, check out this video from the movie "Charly".  

Comment by Gordie WH on April 14, 2012 at 10:37am

Thanks Jennifer!  Your post opens a Pandora's Box on a huge issue IMO.   I see oikophobia and xenophobia as coexisting.   While I wouldn't agree that ALL CIVILIZATIONS have been rendered asunder from within, I would agree that it is true of ALL EMPIRES.

IMO in western civilization oikophobia has its roots in the 3 religions of Abraham which espouse the inherent evil of human nature, defined as disobedience.  Except for Judaism, the other 2 religions mandate salvation (improvement) for self and others.   Roman Emperor Constantin called on the Christian Bishops to codify Christian doctrine for the purpose of making Christianity the state religion of the Roman Empire.  Christianity has been using State power ever since to spread the Social Gospel.    The Social Gospel has been the inspiration for the establishment and expansion of the American Empire.

Xenophobia can be seen in the KKK, Islamophobia, and anti-communism.    Xenophobia takes ethnocentrism to another level.

Republicanism is no guarantee of prevention of either oikophobia or xenophobia.   Israel suffers from the internal conflict of reconciling the Torah with democracy.   An Islamic Republic is an oxymoron since in Islam there is no separation of church and state.   One of the afflictions of the American Republic is the disparity between the Christian notion of turning-the-other-cheek, the Golden Rule (which pre-dates Christianity) , and the Social Gospel.    I believe the strength of the American Republic lies in the original intent and purpose of its Constitution.   We tried a Federation but that didn't work out too well.   We've got a Constitutional Republic and an operating manual (the Constitution) and I think we should stick to it.   That manual stipulates freedom of religion.   I think that means ALL religions.

I oppose Alexander Hamilton's  principle of a strong unitary executive since that leads to totalitarian dictatorship, which is only one executive order away.   (BTW, Obamacare is fascism not socialism since ownership of insurance companies would remain in the private sector.   I hope the Supreme Court finds the entire law unconstitutional.)

So, yes, I would agree that we are infected.   But we have the antidote.   The Constitution!!!